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| MFGG Message Boards: Archives > Arts Board > Criticism |
| Posted by: Shawn Jan 18 2009, 01:49 PM |
| Alright, this is really pissing me off so, I'm gonna come out and be a bitch and rant about it. How come hardly anyone can deal with criticism around here? There's like a few exceptions of people who can accept this stuff. Crits are intended to help you improve your work, that's all they're for. You can listen or you can ignore it but don't be a little bitch about it. Look at it this way, when you're learning a new language and people that speak it fluently give you pointers and translate some things for you to increase your understanding of it do you tell them to fuck off and claim that you're right? Do you listen and thank them so you can improve yourself? Or do you just ignore them because they just learned the language themselves a couple years ago? Now, I know not everyone is a god of art but everyone's criticism is as valid as any professionals. Some people may draw poorly but it doesn't mean they don't understand flaws in peoples artworks when they see them. A poor artist can give better criticism than an amazing artist. However, the artist themselves often have trouble noticing flaws in their own work. Going back to the language thing, when you write an essay, it's obviously going to sound good to you because YOU wrote it, but does it sound good to everyone else? That's why in many language classes, people proofread each others works, it's difficult to find your own flaws and fix them yourself. Being able to listen and work with others is a necessity in improvement no matter how you look at it. I understand that not everyone is searching for criticism and they just want to show off something they made. I'm fine with that, but personally, I feel there should be some sort of separation between these. A criticism board and a general art posting board. Even if it's just one board for arts, I think people should state whether they want criticism or not in their topic so they don't get all pissy when they receive it because they don't wanna fix anything. Concerning the general "friendliness" of criticism, that's all a load of crap. Criticism does not need to sound nice, constructive and destructive are two different things, I know, but being nice and being mean don't affect the quality of the criticism. The truth hurts, if your art sucks and there's a giant list of flaws that someone points out, it shows that they're really trying to help you, not that they're trying to be a dick. It's up to you to interpret the criticism however you want but you need to understand that if someone is even giving you criticism, they're just trying to help. That should just about wrap it up. Love, Shawn. <3 |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 01:51 PM |
| Why don't you ever act this intelligent on a normal basis. I agree with the entirety of your post by the way, had to be said eventually. Less ass kissing more helping each other out. |
| Posted by: Overlord Alice Jan 18 2009, 01:59 PM |
| I agree 100%, say what you want people, but if you can't take simple criticism there's a good chance you won't improve. It may be bothersome, but Shawn is right, the truth hurts and if you can't accept it as an artist don't even think about going into the big leagues. Criticism varies, but in the end it's all just helpful advice. |
| Posted by: LocoRoo Jan 18 2009, 02:01 PM |
| Agree. And lock from mod is not good criticism ploz |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 02:27 PM | ||
I doubt they would lock this topic. |
| Posted by: Lan Jan 18 2009, 03:00 PM |
| Shawn, have I mentioned that I love you? |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:16 PM | ||
I'm just going to leave you with this critique i found on the internet. "It's just plain badly drawn. No depth, no shading, sterile lineart, cheap background, lopsided face... heck, she doesn't even have an expression. Seriously, there's really nothing good to say about the picture, and you would have to improve tenfold before your stuff could be considered attractive. It's the truth, and you should be ashamed of yourself." "Wow, just ****ing wow. I'm not much of an artist but that is... please go back to the basics of art and start over learning how to draw. So far all the art of yours that I've seen suggests you never learned the basics of art. Please get to studying and practicing so we can see some decent work. Good luck." These are considered critique, but do they really help? No. They're bad criticism. Good criticism pinpoints what is exactly wrong with the picture, but he/she critiques it in a nice way. Great Criticism does that, and also effectively explains how to fix such mistakes ("You can fix this broken leg by doing this.. etc"). Excellent criticism does both, and redlines the picture to teach the artist what to do next time, just in case he/she has to draw something similar. Bad criticism just swamps the artist with negative feedback, and does not help the artist improve at all. |
| Posted by: Fuzzy Jan 18 2009, 03:16 PM |
| ITT tl;dr guess thats cool but it seems like stuff is repeated in your rant, maybe it could've been shorter. |
| Posted by: ZeldaMalon Jan 18 2009, 03:17 PM |
| sticky this plz oop nvm here comes the drama |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:18 PM | ||
Why can't people distinguish true criticism from attempts to piss artists off |
| Posted by: Razz Jan 18 2009, 03:24 PM |
| if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen |
| Posted by: Shawn Jan 18 2009, 03:25 PM | ||
ALL criticism is intended to help. It does fucking matter how asshole-ish the person may be, they're trying to help. "No depth, no shading, sterile lineart, cheap background, lopsided face" and "please go back to the basics of art" ARE in fact, real crits. Ok, they sound like jackasses but so what? It doesn't mean they are giving proper criticism. Not all crits need to be exact steps of how to fix everything up, those seriously don't help the artist. It's up to you to fix the flaws, the people just need to tell you where it needs improvement. |
| Posted by: Raccoon Sam Jan 18 2009, 03:29 PM | ||||
| Makes sense. 'Bad criticism' isn't really all that different anyway, though. Everyone should learn to analyze one's given criticism instead of being a **** about it. The quotes I wrote below share the same message but the latter is 'nicer'. All in all they're the same thing.
On a related note, whenever I'm given criticism, I check the parts I'm told to and usually go all 'Hey, whaddya know! It does look pretty stupid', and if I don't, the criticizer is usually a troll. Also, the criticizer isn't the one you should expect the answers from. I can tell an author of a drawing that it looks bad, but cannot help him improve, as I do not necessarily know how it would look better. |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:30 PM | ||
Hey shawn, go back to the basics of spriting, I don't like your pixel art. gee I sure am helpful with my criticism |
| Posted by: Black Squirrel Jan 18 2009, 03:32 PM |
| Everyone should go back and put "constructive" before "critisism". Because "this sucks" doesn't help. |
| Posted by: Glukom Jan 18 2009, 03:33 PM |
| If the crit isn't brutal, the person won't get it. My first sprites were shit, and people let me know. If they had told me "good job, they need work but aren't terrible," I never would've thought they were bad enough to need significant improvement. The fact is, if crit is too nice, the person making the art won't strive to improve. And if they quit because they can't take it, that's their fault. |
| Posted by: Raccoon Sam Jan 18 2009, 03:33 PM | ||
That's because that isn't criticism. I do understand your trolling effort, but still it contradicts itself. "I hate you and your mother and I would like to strangle you with my cock. Don't ban me though, 'cause that's criticism." isn't a valid statement. Criticism is pointing out flaws, not necessarily explaining how to fix them. If one does not point out even the flaws, he is a bad critic. |
| Posted by: Fez Jan 18 2009, 03:34 PM |
| Ah finally. This is what we needed. I hope everyone actually pays attention to this. |
| Posted by: Shawn Jan 18 2009, 03:36 PM | ||
Spriting is completely different. There are no basics, being a good spriter often requires being good at drawing as well. Any flaws I have in spriting are mainly due to my lack of traditional art skills. Since you're the greatest god in the art world, you aren't aware that it does help to go back a few steps and try simplistic things like still life and accurate anatomy. Although it's not always easy to here, going back to basics is for the best. You can't learn to run without walking, you're not going to need to know general things before going into real detail and depth with art. |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:37 PM | ||
I just refuse to listen to criticism that's a) too harsh (learn courtesy plz, artists have feelings) b) doesn't point out any flaws (wtf?) c) attacking the artist (obviously) I do LIKE good criticism, but I don't like criticism that simply gives the artist no direction on how to improve his/her art. "Learn the basics of drawing" is one of those non-directional criticisms. (yeah it "directs" the artist to learn the basics of drawing, but the term is a blanket statement that can refer to anatomy, perspective, etc) |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 03:38 PM |
| PROTIP: Harsh criticism is the best kind if the one giving it knows what they're talking about. Just keep that in mind and the differences between "helping" and "bashing" become a whole lot easier. |
| Posted by: Glukom Jan 18 2009, 03:38 PM | ||
Not entirely true. If somebody really thinks that badly about something you made, then you know you have a problem. |
| Posted by: Shawn Jan 18 2009, 03:40 PM |
| Just throwing this out there but, when I started spriting. I received the harshest damn criticism ever. I doubt anyone would remember Pixeltendo back in 05(OSM maybe?). Back then, we had real spriters, and real shit spriters as well. I remember one dude, Zaknafien, he was a total dick. He would tear my stuff apart and vomit down my throat and make me feel like a terrible artist, but guess what? After like a month of taking that, my improvement was noticeable. I hate the guy to death but I do respect his harsh criticism as in the long run, it helped me a bunch. |
| Posted by: Razz Jan 18 2009, 03:41 PM |
| Ashura I haven't seen a single person criticize you unfairly, it's always you who freaks out and can't take the heat -- you really aren't in the proper position to tell us what proper criticism is |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 03:41 PM |
| Not really. When they just flat out say "this sucks" there is absolutely no criticism to go by. I haven't seen that anywhere on MFGG though, yet. |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:42 PM | ||
I just don't understand how artists could listen and take harsh criticism. Yeah, sometimes the critic can be right, but critics seem to forget that artists have an emotional limit on how mean the critic's advice is. I swear, if I saw a critic harshly criticizing an amatuer artist IRL, I would feel sympathetic towards the artist and tell him/her to not listen to that critic. Why can't people be nice nowadays... critics should learn to be nice |
| Posted by: Glukom Jan 18 2009, 03:44 PM | ||
I'm not saying it's good criticism, but it can be a good... wake-up call. |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 03:44 PM | ||||
Not to sound like a General douchebag, but if everyone followed your sensitive nature there would be FAR too much ass kissing going around and not enough progression in artistic skills overall.
True, but it depends who is saying it and what they have to back their statement up. |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:44 PM | ||
A kind member once replied to my kumatora picture in October, with this wonderful piece of advice: "the anatomy wat" so yeah, I have been criticized unfairly. |
| Posted by: LuigiFan Jan 18 2009, 03:45 PM |
| just ask them what they think is wrong with the picture goddammit if they can't think of a reason then just ignore them |
| Posted by: Glukom Jan 18 2009, 03:46 PM | ||
no offense, but this is just stupid Just because someone isn't nice doesn't make their crit wrong edit: grammar |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 03:46 PM | ||
Anatomy is a pretty important thing to know. I found that if you have a good handle on realistic proportions it rubs off on your own artwork as well. Everything starts to have more of a shape instead of looking like lines. When it comes to cartoons and other abstract designs however, it all comes down to personal tastes. Nothing else. |
| Posted by: Raccoon Sam Jan 18 2009, 03:47 PM |
| Refusing to hear harsh criticism is naive and weak. |
| Posted by: Lan Jan 18 2009, 03:48 PM | ||
Though not presented in the best way possible, the poster is clearly trying to say that you should study anatomy more, because you're doing it wrong as it is now. It's not that hard to read, dude. |
| Posted by: Overlord Alice Jan 18 2009, 03:49 PM |
| Even still, even if they're harsh OR NOT, as the artist you have the right to disregard it, like this line: "*This is my crit*, feel free to disregard" (btw, this doesn't mean you shouldn't read it, it's a consideration) But you shouldn't ignore the fact it was someone trying to help, good or bad. Like Shawn said, the truth hurts, forget feelings, people are "brutally honest" in the artworld. |
| Posted by: Nicholas Ainsworth Jan 18 2009, 03:53 PM |
| My $0.02: I believe in good, honest criticism that helps the artist improve. Not sugarcoating and asskissing, and not bashing and bitching. The best kind of criticism points out both the fortes and pianos (strengths and weaknesses) of the work without sucking up to the artist or making him or her feel like complete shit. Likewise, it's also up to the artist to learn how to take criticism. Yeah, he or she isn't obligated to take shit from anyone, but that doesn't invalidate their critique. Art Guy can have a problem with his anatomy, then Bob says, "Your anatomy sucks, you suck, I HOPE YOU DIE," and then Jim says, "Your anatomy could use some work, but you're headed in the right direction. Brush up some more and you'll do great." Bob is a complete faggot, while Jim actually had the decency to show you respect, but that doesn't mean Bob's shit-eating critique is invalid just because he threw in some insults. |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:55 PM | ||||
I don't like ass-kissers too. They just go "WOW THIS IS GREAT", when the they know there's something wrong. It is fine if the critic tells the artist how to improve, as long as the critic is being genuinely courteous. IMO, Artists should avoid Noxious critics and listen to Nourishing critics. Noxious critics may know what they're talking about, but they only swamp the artist and leave the artist with a huge agenda on what he/she should do to improve. They show no signs of support to the artist. On the other hand, Nourishing critics are courteous to the artist, and while they criticize his/her artwork, they show signs that they are supporting the artist, and that they know the boundaries the artist have (such as a busy schedule, etc). A nourishing critic will give the artist a reasonable agenda so he/she can improve (like "work on hands for 30 minutes every day, for about 2 months, and you'll see an improvement"), while a noxious critic will give the artist an unreasonable one (like "work on the hands"). For a lack of a better analogy, Nourshing critics keep the artist afloat in rather treacherous waters, while noxious critics do not. Nourishing critic = good, Noxious critic = bad I hope that future critics will have most characteristics of a nourishing artist... Fine, I'll be more of a douche bag and try to be a noxious critic. Let's see how that turns out.. |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 03:56 PM | ||||
You clearly don't understand what we're all trying to explain to you. Wait there is none now dsfsdf |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:58 PM | ||
Somewhat agreeing with this post I wouldn't listen to Bob, while I would listen to Jill |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 03:59 PM | ||||
sorry... I kept rewording my post and I accidentally left the "not" the edit button is not fast enough :< ! |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 04:00 PM |
| NO EXCUSES there was never irony in my post anyway. |
| Posted by: Glukom Jan 18 2009, 04:01 PM | ||
What if he isn't heading in the right direction, though? If Art Guy hears "the anatomy's a little off," then his next piece of art may be only a little better. If he hears "the anatomy is really, really bad," if he really cares about art, he'll look into anatomy and come back with something a lot better. |
| Posted by: Shawn Jan 18 2009, 04:02 PM |
| Ashura you still don't get it. My whole fucking point is that everyone's opinion is valid. It doesn't matter if someone is a good or bad artist, mean or nice, or even someone who doesn't draw or do any form of art. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and they are allowed to criticize an art piece if they wish to. Minor details about their life doesn't affect how they criticize. |
| Posted by: Xgoff Jan 18 2009, 04:03 PM | ||
this i rarely ever see people balance the good and bad things about something; generally it's straight praise or straight criticism, neither of which really helps someone all that much since they either don't improve at all or they waste time and effort improving what didn't need improvement (or at least didn't need it nearly as badly as what was explicitly mentioned) not that i should talk because i'm the second type lol |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 04:05 PM |
| Why isn't this gem of a thread stickied yet |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 04:06 PM | ||
:/ oh well, I can't help but criticize myself for not being able to explain effectively.. |
| Posted by: Xgoff Jan 18 2009, 04:07 PM | ||
this could be reworded to carry the same meaning but without so much of the negative something like "so and so needs a lot of improvement" in fact that's part of what my other post talked about; people like lumping together things into one word like "anatomy", when in fact there may only be specific anatomic areas that need improvement, not all of it (the latter is sort of being rigidly implied by the quoted phrase) |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 04:08 PM | ||
THERE YOU GO. YOU JUST PROVED SHAWN'S POINT. That's what criticism basically is. |
| Posted by: Glukom Jan 18 2009, 04:09 PM | ||
It could be, but doesn't necessarily have to be. |
| Posted by: Fuzzy Jan 18 2009, 04:15 PM |
| I think this topic should be locked and stickied immeadiately. |
| Posted by: Shawn Jan 18 2009, 04:16 PM |
| I agree. This topic served its purpose. There's no way you can win this one, Ashura. You're vision of how criticism should be is flawed and would never work in the real world. Game over, bro. Game over. |
| Posted by: Badassbill Jan 18 2009, 04:18 PM |
| All criticism is valid despite how shitty it is, because all criticism is born from opinion. |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 04:20 PM |
| <3 |
| Posted by: Nicholas Ainsworth Jan 18 2009, 04:25 PM | ||
Well yeah, that's true. The point I was making was that even if he wasn't headed in the right direction, both Bob and Jim's critiques are valid, even if Bob was being an outright prick. Also, I think the topic is pretty much done, but I'm gonna wait to see what other replies crop up. In the meantime, :sticky: |
| Posted by: Bacteriophage Jan 18 2009, 04:42 PM | ||
Then you understood absolutely NOTHING of that post, nor did you understand what everyone here is trying to tell you. Bob and Jim, in that example, are saying the exact same thing. The fact that you would reject or accept the same message solely because of how "nice" they are is your exact flaw, and it's what you're being told to STOP DOING. |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 04:43 PM | ||
Excuse me? Have people forgotten the whole point of arguments? The whole point of an argument is to GET CLOSER TO THE TRUTH, not to win. I realized the truth that your argument was valid. I respected you a bit after realizing that your point was valid, but after this gem of a reply you lost that respect. Congratulations. |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 04:46 PM |
Don't turn this into a war ground, please.  |
| Posted by: Bacteriophage Jan 18 2009, 04:47 PM | ||
Yeah, this topic is actually pretty damn useful. Don't force it to get locked, CoF'd, or what have you. |
| Posted by: RelmM Jan 18 2009, 04:47 PM | ||
I won't.... but whatever, I'm kinda upset over shawn's post. I'm done with this topic. |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 04:49 PM | ||
PROTIP: Don't hold a grudge on someone because they say you spend too much time on video games. I've clocked in probably more hours then God himself could count into the Zelda games, no shame in it whatsoever. NOW QUIT ARGUING AND HATING EACH OTHER ALREADY. Tired of Shawn whining on MSN all the time about both of your shenanigans. |
| Posted by: Bacteriophage Jan 18 2009, 04:52 PM | ||
If you were honestly upset by a post like that, then I both understand why you'd feel the way you do about criticism and feel as if there is no way to help you out. Ashura, you're way too sensitive to posts made by people you don't know on the internet. Your artwork has qualities that you are already quite aware of, and people point them out too. You have every right to disregard any criticism you want, even if it's just because mean ol' shawn hurt your feewings. That does not, however, give you clearance to force everyone to conform to your idea of "nourishing the artist" (what do you want now, grapes on a platter?) by being nice and cuddly and complimentary. If you honestly want to disregard all criticism, you can do so. You have the complete option to avoid all negative criticism and all ass-kissing, while even putting in less effort. How? Don't post. If you don't want any criticism at all, then don't even draw. You don't have to make these people take their time to help you, and they'll stop regardless of whether you post or not if you keep demanding that they give you a big fuckin' hug. My own personal opinion: Criticism is a pointer, and it varies between people. Within reason (in other words, "shit sucks" and "you rule let's sex" are flatline unacceptable) criticism has no set standard. A critic can choose to point out the flaws alone, the good parts alone, or both if they choose--it is not the choice of the person receiving the criticism to get good or bad. They can take all or nothing. |
| Posted by: Nicholas Ainsworth Jan 18 2009, 05:02 PM | ||
^ This is also a very important post, everyone read this |
| Posted by: Eno the Red Guy Jan 18 2009, 05:05 PM |
| I subscribe to the school of thinking that if you're nicer about it (or at least neutral), you're going to do a better job of getting the person to improve. Telling someone "This drawing sucks, the anatomy is completely ****ing wrong and the shading makes no goddamn sense" might just scare them from trying ever again. That kind of criticism is humiliating and makes the person feel like a complete idiot who will never improve. I'm not saying the person is "wrong" in saying the anatomy is off or the shading doesn't work. Thicker skinned artists may look past the insulting nature of the comment and pick up on the actual criticism contained within it, however plenty of artists will read that and either get extremely defensive and not listen or they will think "He's right, God I suck, what was I doing thinking I could draw at all?" and promptly give up. I'm not saying either behaviour is right either, but it's definitely something I'd expect to see. Critics need to be aware of how their comments may sound just as much as the artist needs to think of how he interprets them. You can say all you want that they should man up, but the fact is that some of them won't. |
| Posted by: OSM Jan 18 2009, 05:15 PM |
 Lock the thread alreadyyy good post btw Eno |
| Posted by: Sword Jan 18 2009, 05:34 PM | ||
sdfgsdf fuck |
| Posted by: Nicholas Ainsworth Jan 18 2009, 05:52 PM | ||
holy shit You win this round, OSM >:( |